KJ (00:01.27)
Hi everybody, welcome again to the Heart of the Matter. This is Kelly Hart and I have a wonderful friend with me today, it's TR. TR, welcome to Heart of the Matter.

Tom (00:11.798)
Thanks, Kelly. It's a pleasure to join you this morning.

KJ (00:14.702)
Oh, thank you. Well, it's a pleasure to have you with us today. You're such a good friend and such a wonderful person to spend time with. I wanted to have you here today with me to kind of talk about your journey with working in a very male dominant. I can't even say it today. I'm tongue tied already. You got me so excited. A very male dominated role and world. And also what it's like.

Tom (00:34.242)
Okay, yeah.

KJ (00:42.774)
to steward young men professionally and also personally. So tell us a little bit about you, what you do, and where you've been in the world. Give us a real background.

Tom (00:53.998)
Sure, thanks. That sounds great. Love to tell you a little bit more about this. I guess without going too far into exactly everything that I'm currently involved with, I'll tell you that my family and I, we originally grew up in Miami, Florida and where our families were originally from. We moved to the Carolinas right before I started high school. And so that was obviously a big change right there and that being the oldest of three boys.

I don't know if they necessarily had the same impact I did as moving right before high school and everything else that probably shapes a little bit of who I am today. The difference between myself and the youngest is almost eight years. So the move for them wasn't as probably as big of a deal. But yeah, from there, you know, growing up in the Carolinas and even proceeding that growing up in Miami, I've always been a huge sports fan. I played sports from an early age.

I had a father who played collegiate football at the University of North Carolina that had a big influence on my life. And then, not ironically, once I went to undergraduate school and then proceeded following to graduate school, I knew I wanted to be in the sports world. I was pursuing a degree in, a master's degree in sport management and was able to get that. And then finished, spent a year also at another athletic department, basically finishing my degree and knowing that I was going to head into my journey.

KJ (02:04.985)
Hmm.

Tom (02:19.254)
working in sports. So for over 30 years, I've worked in various capacities in, uh, in sports management, operations, marketing, business development, partnerships, et cetera. And I've been with my current company for over 20 years, which is almost an anomaly in today's days and age because there's a lot of movement out there. But, um, my roles have spanned from working in professional football to the Olympics, to tennis, to, uh,

KJ (02:38.054)
Yeah.

Tom (02:47.886)
pretty much every major sport on the contractual side, meaning working with a company where we're securing their rights and permissions to use their IP and games and other things like that. So it's all been sports related since I kicked off my journey many years ago.

KJ (02:57.86)
What?

KJ (03:04.086)
Yeah, that's pretty exciting stuff. I bet you've seen a lot, been a lot of places. Do you have a favorite memory when you think back about it?

Tom (03:12.39)
I think the ability to probably travel internationally was something I always wanted to do. So I've worked with hockey leagues all over Western Europe, numerous car manufacturers. In addition to that, I've spent a lot of time in the golf world. So one of the highlights is probably been able to go to the Grand Slam, which is all four majors has been an unbelievable experience. So everything from the Masters to the US Open to the PGA Championship, and then the Open Championship, which is always in the UK.

KJ (03:33.879)
I see.

Tom (03:42.778)
Um, these are experiences I probably would have never dreamed of because as a kid, these are things that I watched and just, um, you know, fast forward 25 years later, I'm meeting people that I watched as a child. Um, they may be in retired, but they're still involved. Yeah. It's heroes. I mean, pro football hall of fame, going to the super bowl. I don't want to, I'm not trying to sound braggadocious about talking about it, but this is, this has opened up things to me that I've been passionate about. So I.

KJ (03:57.082)
Yeah. You know this.

Tom (04:11.722)
I've never, I'll say one thing, I've always been very conscientious of how fortunate I've been to be able to do these things. I just think the experiences I've had have been amazing. It's been very blessed, really, to be able to do something that I love. Yeah. I'm very fortunate in that way. Yeah.

KJ (04:25.734)
Yeah, that's amazing. That's awesome. So what do you think have been some of the biggest challenges that you faced working in this profession?

Tom (04:33.247)
Yeah.

Tom (04:41.066)
Well, I would say this, the road to get in there was not necessarily the easiest one, meaning that it's a highly competitive industry, whether it's professional team, whether it's working in college athletics, could be anything. Sports are extremely popular, the NFL being probably the largest and most successful sports organization globally, for sure in North America. But so when I say that, it wasn't necessarily very easy. It took a lot of...

KJ (05:02.426)
Hmm.

Tom (05:10.422)
willingness to somewhat sacrifice in terms of well, being an intern, not necessarily getting paid the first few years out, had to volunteer, which meant that I had to work additional jobs outside of it. So I may have been doing something in the athletic department nine to five, but then I was working in a department store at night in the clothing department or something like that or working event security. And that just took a long time. It took three or four years. This is again, this goes back to the.

early nineties so we won't talk about numbers and everything what that looked like but it was um I think you had to have that uh willingness to stick it out because it was really easy a lot of the folks that I went to grad school with eventually did not stick it out to pursue a professional career in sports it just was maybe not necessarily financially rewarding but also the opportunities just weren't great I mean it's just a limited field now the one thing I'd say is once you get into it

you've got your foot holding, you do your best to stay in it if that's what you really want to pursue. So yeah, most importantly, it was just difficult to break in and just had to be very, very willing to, like I said, sacrifice and be persistent.

KJ (06:20.927)
What do you think some of the biggest life lessons you've learned from

Tom (06:25.398)
Uh, well, I mean, I would say that I've said this over and over to myself is always do something that you enjoy. You're passionate about because life's way too short. So the biggest lesson I got professionally is I'm doing something I enjoy. If it ever comes to a point where I don't, it's really not worth it. Um, you don't want to ever be in a position where you're waking up or you're, you finished your day and you're already dreading going to what you're going to do the next day. That's just not a very fulfilling life.

KJ (06:31.957)
Yeah.

Tom (06:52.266)
Not to go off onto a tangent, but I always say there's two things that impact each other number one There's your professional work and if you're unhappy with that can often blend into your personal life Vice versa if you're in a relationship or something that's not Working out. It's not satisfying. It's difficult. We're not robots to cut it off They tend to blend each other because we spend the majority of our days at work You know during the work week and then we have our other life too and it's not easy to necessarily disconnect those so

Yeah, I mean, I think that's been the resounding thing is that to pursue what you enjoy has been a big part of who I am. And I've been following what I've been passionate about. And I don't ever again, I'll probably say it a few times. I'm very thankful for it. I think that's what I've gotten out to do is being very grateful for opportunities and being knowing that I'm getting to do something that I've enjoyed for this long and had a lot of a lot of great things come my way.

KJ (07:48.03)
Yeah, so you have two young sons. What do you think you would advise them to do since you've got all this wonderful experience doing something you love?

Tom (07:51.063)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (08:01.066)
That would be the first thing is to, and for me, it's really important that they find something that they're going to be passionate about or enjoy. You know, one of the big differences, and this is probably just a generational thing growing up, is I felt like, from my group, and this is somebody who was, well, grew up in the 70s and 80s essentially, and graduated from high school in the 80s, later 80s.

is that we all, everybody, you automatically were gonna go to college. That almost felt like that was an implied thing that you needed to do. It wasn't something you didn't think you needed. That's what everybody needed to do. And of course, that's what I did and that's what I wanted to do. What's really different for me now in terms of thinking about four-year education and stuff like that and necessarily having going to a major university. I was fortunate to do that in both cases. You know, for my kids, they could get a trade. They could go to community college.

I'm definitely not having, there's no pressure. There was not pressure placed on me from my parents to do it. It was just known that that's what you do. We were going to go to college, that's what you needed to do to develop a career back then. I think it's very different for me in how I view things now. You know, and if that's what they wanna pursue, I'm certainly gonna support that. But you know, doing something that you're enjoying, whether that's a vocation, trade, et cetera, I'm fully behind that. And with them just being

Well, they're just 13. So we're not quite close to them graduating yet, but we are at a critical stage where we're starting to think about those things. Middle school is a pretty important time. It's formative years. Yeah. So.

KJ (09:34.062)
No, I didn't. Yeah. So, you know, I think it's very interesting. And one thing that I, one reason I wanted to talk to you specifically is that, you know, I do see a lot of the challenges that, you know, young men are facing, that all men are facing, but specifically young men. What do you see?

Tom (09:43.458)
Hmm.

Tom (09:58.594)
Well, this is a big difference and I mean not to get off into a hot topic per se but the one thing that I think has been, I don't know if we want to say it's purposeful or whatever, masculinity is no longer just masculinity. The word masculinity means toxic. That's the way it tends to be. We seem to have a direction of making boys not proud for being who they are and the certain innate qualities they have and girls have their qualities. Again, I'm not going off onto a tangent to get into.

KJ (10:14.06)
Right.

Tom (10:27.486)
another discussion with that, but I would say is raising young boys. It's very different. Different. Competitive is good. It's a great thing being masculine and having masculine characteristics and wanting to be a leader is a great thing. That doesn't mean it's toxic and you know, sticking up for your beliefs and everything is extremely important. And so I think I'm more conscientious of how they're aware of that where it was already known kind of goes back to going to college and everything.

KJ (10:36.94)
Yep.

Tom (10:57.27)
If you consider my generation is the generation that were the grandchildren of the greatest generation in my mind. That was the war work too. So I think we still had some residual effects of how we grew up and the way we did things. I think it was a lot more independent as children. Our parents did their thing, but we were, it was actually had a latchkey kids. I mean, a lot of time, you know, I can remember people, we'd come home from school and parents may not be there, but you'd unlock, you take care of yourself. There is a lot more helicoptering that goes on now. It's just a very,

KJ (11:22.689)
No.

Tom (11:25.622)
very different day and age. I mean, I can see a directive. I mean, things like, even from a bigger perspective, think about things like riding bikes with helmets. These are things that back then, it was just a different world. There wasn't all the different, I guess, safety measures, which is for good or bad, but you know, I think kids would be out till it was dusk and that's the way it was and they were playing outside. And...

uh, you know, even with my generation, we did have electronics and video games, stuff like that, but this current generation, um, since they've been born and able to, it's a lot of it is screen time, right? So they, and they're consumed with it. It's, uh, it's, uh, it's easy to do. I've got no problems with any of the gaming stuff for a lot of different reasons, but, um, uh, you know,

I don't know if they get out as much as we did as kids because we didn't have that in front of us. Not to say that we wouldn't, but that was a long-winded answer to that question. But I think it's drastically different in terms of how I see things for the boys. And again, it goes back to starting off at the beginning when I answered this about masculinity, I think it's viewed as a very negative thing in a lot of ways, meaning not positive, where I believe being masculine has a lot of positive traits to it.

being a leader and being a provider and all the other things that go with that.

KJ (12:51.93)
Oh, I agree 100%. And I think that it's very difficult for young men and even for young women. It's a very confusing time. And so I think it's a topic that we're gonna probably have to talk a lot more about. So I just wondered specifically, since you're in a very male dominated field, if you were seeing issues with individuals unraveling, so to speak.

Tom (13:00.342)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Tom (13:05.923)
For sure.

Tom (13:11.712)
Yes.

Tom (13:19.766)
Yeah, I mean, I think you could say that. I just think there's been so much, you know, particularly I'd say over the last three or four years, as a, as a, as a, in the world globally, we've gone through a lot of different things that we've experienced from a work perspective. I've always been remote from my job. A lot of people were forced to remote work. It didn't matter what industry you're in. I think that's impacted everybody. Remote working is not necessarily for everybody. Um, and just a lot of societal changes have come about.

um over the last several years it seems like in terms of workplace um

roles, etc. like that. It's touchy subject, so I'm mindful of how I say too much in regards to that.

KJ (14:04.727)
Yeah. Well, that kind of is a good question, a good path for me to go. You know, we're going to talk about mental health a little bit since this is a mental health podcast, but what do you think mental health is? Like, you know, a lot of people talk about it, oh, mental health is, mental wellness this, but what's your definition of mental health versus mental wellness?

Tom (14:12.11)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Tom (14:30.046)
Uh, mental health is somebody who, um...

Tom (14:38.69)
I guess they're not dealing with any type of certain, I don't wanna say disorder, but there's definitely a lot of disorders. So when it comes to mental health, somebody could have a bipolar disorder, there could be schizophrenia, there could be a number of professional terms that we can use for mental health, depression, there's a lot of different things. I would say, the one thing that's been good, particularly from my era of growing up to now, I think it's more understood that this is things that,

KJ (14:54.444)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (15:07.65)
millions of people have to deal with. I think it's more, it's something we're more willing to have a conversation about, whereas that's something you did not talk about probably for my parents generation. We didn't have these types of conversations. There wouldn't be any conversation about mental health or even mental wellness. I think mental health is being sound and knowing that maybe you're needing to have some professional help with something, whether it's therapy, something to that effect. Mental wellness is kind of a daily...

thing, consider it like a fitness. Um, we have a physical fitness and funny that when we say that, so I often say, um, I'm extremely active, so I probably will do something five to six days a week, but I always say, I do that not only for body, but for mind and spirit, because for me, that's what I need for my balance. So wellness often means balance and things. Look, life is tough. We're going to all go through journeys. We're going to all have different trials and tribulations. Cause that's just part of being.

here on this earth and that's what we deal with. So I think wellness is a daily journey. Mental health is when you're addressing something that needs to be, I don't want to say fixed, but just addressed. Wellness is always for always.

KJ (16:22.358)
Yeah, I completely agree. I like that answer. Good job, good job.

Tom (16:24.254)
Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, going off the top of my head. No notes here. I'm going to go flying by the seat of my pants as I say, so I'm kind of going off the top of my head.

KJ (16:31.91)
I'm sorry.

KJ (16:35.578)
No, no. So we talked about, you talked about exercise, but what other habits do you think you might have to keep yourself like fine tuned in your mental wellness?

Tom (16:45.738)
Um, being conscientious of how you handle relationships personally on the, whether it's business outside of business, et cetera. So, but in addition to, um, and not to get necessarily into the religious part, I think prayer is a big part of what works for me. That could be meditation for somebody else, but trying to be mindful and thoughtful. Um, you know, I've gotten to the habit where I try to start my day and think about what's coming up.

I think it's spending a little bit of time alone. It could be in anything. This could be for anybody, right? Whether that's how they're contemplating what's happening. It's really trying to check yourself. Now this, when I say this, let's consider this part of the journey that's unraveled over the last couple of years. So it's taken me quite a while to get to this place. I'm a lot more introspective. So, but fitness is a big part of that. It just, I'm somebody who's the way I'm wired. I need, I've just been active my whole life. I've...

I played competitive stuff, I still do competitive things now. It's part of my nature. But it helps me just all across mentally, physically, etc.

KJ (17:53.962)
Right. And are there any practices that you do for your boys that kind of help them with their mental wellness?

Tom (18:01.494)
Um, you know, with them, as you can imagine with teenagers, um, I think I'm more mindful in conversations I have with them without, I don't know if I'm hitting hard enough with them on certain things yet, although we're at a point where they're growing and changing all the time. And, um, I'm trying to probably instill some of the habits I had. They're not working yet, but I've been pretty conscientious about saying.

you know, when you get to be about 15, we're gonna do some summer jobs. So I want you to start to think about what that's gonna be because that's really the age that I started doing something. So that's a big part of responsibility. It's probably a big thing. I would say their mother and I probably agree on that. We may not be in the same household, but the one thing we do is co-parent well together. And that's probably been the key of how we're raising our kids.

KJ (18:51.362)
Awesome. Good. I like that. So I hear a lot of balance, a lot of mindfulness, trying to keep yourself in the middle versus falling too far to one side or the other. That's great.

Tom (18:52.434)
Yeah.

Tom (18:56.835)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (19:00.268)
Yeah.

Tom (19:05.57)
Totally. Yeah, and that's something I've had to learn. It's taken a long time to get to that point.

KJ (19:11.318)
Yeah, I think I'm still working on it.

Tom (19:13.51)
Yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, I feel like it's always a journey. I think we're always learning.

KJ (19:18.126)
Yeah, I think so too. That's what, you know, I think we're human. We're always gonna continue to work on it. But that's the wonderful thing, especially when you can have good friends like you who kind of help us along and go, okay, it's time to be encouraged. Yeah, it's okay.

Tom (19:24.051)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (19:28.971)
Yes, thank you.

Tom (19:33.43)
You need those people in your life.

KJ (19:35.13)
Keep on, keep on. All right. What do you think is the most important thing that you have learned, not just professionally, but just cumulatively that you might wanna share with folks out there?

Tom (19:37.246)
Yep, absolutely.

Tom (19:52.266)
Well, you know, and this goes back to the point of how I, my generation was raised. And that is that, um, we tended to keep all of our stuff inside. I've had to overcome that. That is just, that's a male. I don't want to classify that as a male trait, but I can just tell you from these things that are just kind of implied. It's just the way it is, is that, um,

I would work through things myself. This goes through high school, college, et cetera, without sharing. That is not necessarily the healthy way to go. So the one, it's really not to be honest with you. If the one thing that I've learned is to have that willingness to say, you know what? I need somebody else to step in and help guide me. And I need to seek that. Which again, it's become more accepted. I think it was maybe more taboo. Maybe 30 years ago, you know, you have to go to therapy. You want to talk to a professional counselor or whatever.

Whereas what I've realized is that's what needs to be done in a lot of cases, particularly with what everybody went through over the last few years with a pandemic, isolation, everything else. And I imagine that's been something that's impacted just about everybody. I mean, we all went through it together, so it's not a one part of the world situation. Um, so for me, one of the biggest things I've learned is to be willing to reach out, to talk to somebody, which is not necessarily, I'm somebody who I'm not wired that way either. It was not comfortable for me.

It's not necessary, but I'm totally at ease now, even having a conversation like this. It's very different. And the one thing you learn to us, maybe it takes a lot longer for some people to get to that point, but boy, when you when your eyes are open and you're awake. It really changes things. So, yeah.

KJ (21:31.366)
Wonderful. What do you think? How do you think that has impact will impact the rest of your life? Let me think.

Tom (21:38.342)
I just think it's changed everything, honestly, in terms of when it comes from relationships and everything else. I mean, a lot of this stems from a relationship that failed a few years ago, and not to dive too much into that, but I really call it kind of, it sounds a little bit overstated here, but I call it the awakening really, because since that point in learning on my journey has really changed everything, and I think it's gonna be great for how I help my boys as they go through life and they deal with relationships, because you know what, it's gonna happen.

they're going to deal with hardships. It doesn't matter professionally or personally. It does just life. Nobody skates free. We don't get to go around without dealing with that. And I just think since that point, I just have really changed in a lot of ways in how I view things. Also prioritizing things are really important too. Maybe that's a time of life thing. I've always, family's always been important, but I just think, you know, the other thing that I'd say probably is one of the strongest statements.

I would do exactly everything the same way that I did it, because that's what got me here today. So whether it was a difficult, difficult thing to deal with and have to fight through, if you said, so would you do it again? The answer, there's not a hesitation to say yes, because then I would have never really figured a lot of things out that really have benefited me.

KJ (22:40.5)
Gahhh!

KJ (22:45.006)
Yeah.

KJ (22:58.706)
In the moment, you weren't thinking that, but now you can see it, right?

Tom (23:00.894)
No, I was not. No. Oh, I can I can see it as clear as day. I don't I think once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I think it gives you a clear clarity and perspective of things. You know, the one thing that came a lot out of that, too, is my interest in really learning more about relational stuff and how we deal with things. And I always said, I think this is one of the things early on I felt like. I said, what can I do one day to get back?

and what have I learned on my journey. And, you know, it never hurts to talk to people. That I know for a fact, and there could be the right person to help you because they've gone through a similar path that could really open some eyes.

KJ (23:46.818)
Yeah, and so what are some of the ways you're thinking about giving back? Because that's what I'm excited about.

Tom (23:52.29)
You know, I'm at that point, I'm doing great in my career and I still love it, but I mean, I don't know if that means necessarily getting a certification or going into this, looking into, you know, maybe it's being a life coach, maybe it's talking about my journey. I do enjoy speaking to classes, so maybe that's something both professionally in the field I'm in, but maybe outside of that too. I just have a real desire to want to, I wanna help people. I mean, I think.

I've gone through it. I've gone through some, you know, this stuff that I feel like, you know, if I can benefit somebody, then that's something I want to do. Now, what is that? How is that going to manifest exactly? That I'm still trying to figure out what I can do. But, you know, just even something like this and talking about it, I'm completely at ease having a conversation. And, yeah, I just I don't I don't, you know, so I don't know. I don't necessarily have a necessary a direct game plan on it. But I'm still kind of pulled that way.

KJ (24:50.934)
Well, and I think, you know, while others will view this podcast and it on YouTube, and I hope many people will eventually see it and they will see, you know, our friendship and our relationship and they'll say, Oh, look, there's just two, two dear friends spending time together. They won't see that at one point, you know, you were really hurting and you were in a place where, you know,

Tom (25:05.323)
Mm-hmm.

KJ (25:20.086)
you were broken. They will never know that, TR. Right? Cause you sit here today, just handsome and smiling and confident and you're just strong self, you know?

Tom (25:25.202)
No they won't.

Tom (25:35.414)
being comfortable with yourself being content that's the other thing too is it's just it's being comfortable it really has changed it is a great place look we still are all gonna deal with stuff but I just tell you the contentment and the being at ease is so different and the one thing I'd say when the and this is this is they're all different journeys different parts of life this has certainly been a two plus year journey here but when the journey started and as I said I basically felt like if I was to ever draw or paint a

It would be like being broken into a million pieces and poured out onto the floor. That's what it felt like. Now that was a culmination of a lot of different things that had happened over the course of a year, different traumas can come in and eventually you get to that point. So there were, there were, there were things that had happened, but I think. I just felt like, um, this is, I'm not figuring this out on my own. And, uh, but you know, you have to, you have to hope that you find the right person.

to get you through the journey. Because that's an important part of it too. I mean, it's, and sometimes you may have to go into a couple different directions to find that, but it was a reset really. I mean, I don't know, I mean, it's putting the pieces so call it Humpty Dumpty, call it whatever you want to, but yeah, it was really, it was a reset in a lot of ways.

KJ (26:53.754)
So let me ask you, let's just say that it's providence and this person just is in that same spot that you might have been in. If you could speak to them, you only got a couple seconds to reach them. What would you say? Because I mean, you know, I'm the therapist and I beg all the time, you know, trying to get people to listen, to hear, to maybe not take their life, because that's what I do.

Tom (26:55.479)
Hmm.

Tom (27:05.143)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (27:15.724)
Yeah.

KJ (27:22.838)
I'm not in Canada by the way, you can tell, because they're hanging in pods and quarters up there. But what would you say to them?

Tom (27:24.714)
Yeah. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Well, I would say if somebody was in that situation, I'll say in my case, I may have been broken, but I've never contemplated that because you know what we call that? That's a permanent solution to a temporary situation. That's not anywhere that I've ever, I've not been there. I needed a reset and I needed to have a conversation. But if I had a few seconds, I'd say in knowing that maybe somebody's in a very broken place.

KJ (27:43.822)
There you go.

KJ (27:58.672)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (27:59.042)
Don't make a decision that's going to be a permanent solution to something you can overcome. I think that's most important, but there is hope on the other side. It's finding the right way to figure out what didn't work and finding ways to get back to who you are. Because I think sometimes we get lost and whether it's a relationship thing, you can easily lose who you are. I don't know if that was the avenue we wanted to go down to, but when you mentioned that, that's just my...

It's something I've heard. I'm not the one to catch the coin that phrase, but I really think it resonates. Hopefully with love. It's a big deal is it means, look, we're going to go through tribulations, but don't ever take that to the extreme decision where there are no more decisions after. So. Yeah. I mean, it's important. They people need to, it's not necessarily easy to unfold and unwind what you're going through, because it's painful to have those conversations. I know at first. It's extremely painful.

KJ (28:43.778)
Yeah, I think so. I think.

Tom (28:57.206)
It's also just as painful to probably keep it internalized and to never express it, if not more so.

KJ (28:57.262)
Mm-hmm.

KJ (29:05.302)
Yes, and I think when we have these big hurts in our lives and we've all had them, people are not alone even though they feel alone, right? But they can connect with people. There are other people out there on the other side. Even if it's on the other side of the screen or it could be on the other side of a chair, there are people out there that will care and they will love you through it and they will help you, walk with you.

Tom (29:12.942)
Correct.

Tom (29:18.39)
Right. Right on.

Tom (29:28.558)
Correct. Because they've been through it. And they understand where you're at.

KJ (29:32.706)
they have been through.

Tom (29:37.538)
So there is hope, there always is. I was thinking the other word that I was just thinking about was cathartic was another one. I could think of a lot of different adjectives and things to consider. But, I mean, it really was.

KJ (29:37.746)
Yeah, there's hope. There is hope.

KJ (29:46.496)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

KJ (29:50.938)
Yeah, well that's awesome. Well, I'm gonna leave it with you. Is there anything else you'd like to share? Any words of wisdom? What do you got, anything?

Tom (30:01.358)
I would first again, thanks again. This is a really glad to be invited to speak a little bit because this is, you've been a part of the journey. I would just say most importantly, keep the hope. Don't try to figure things out with on your own. There are people out there that wanna help and they can help and you'll get through it. But if you ever get, when you do get to the other side, it really is what a way to view things and know that we all go through this journey together. We all get one run.

And so we try to make the best of it. And there is hope. I think that's a good thing that you've hit on. Um, there definitely is and, uh, hang in there, right? Yeah. There's always another, there's always another day and it's up to you to change that and, and want to do it.

KJ (30:41.178)
That's right, hang in there.

KJ (30:49.09)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. And for anybody out there that wants to get in contact with TR, I will have his contact information on my webpage. And if it's not up when you see this, you can always reach out to me at my email address and it'll be listed on the Heart of the Matter website. So please click subscribe and follow us and always follow us here on the Heart of the Matter podcast. Thank you.