kj (00:04.319)
Hi, welcome to the Heart of the Matter with Kelly Hart. Thank you so much for joining us. If you haven't yet, please like, click, and subscribe and share our podcast. We're so excited today because we've got a really special person joining us. It's one of my good friends, Ms. Madison Cook. Thank you for joining us today, Madison.

Madison Cooke (00:26.222)
Yes, well thank you for having me today. I'm super excited to be here.

kj (00:30.519)
Well, we're super excited to have you. Well, Madison, we're really happy to have you. Madison comes today she is getting ready to be one of the newest licensed clinical mental health clinicians and associate and one of my favorites, a play therapist in the state of North Carolina. So Madison, tell us a little bit about you and what brought you into the field.

and what led you to want to be a play therapist in particular.

Madison Cooke (01:06.346)
Yeah, so as Kelly mentioned, current student right now here in North Carolina, what really led me to this field is, you know, my own struggles with mental health. So going way back as a teenager, I, as many teenagers that we see, have my own struggles with anxiety and bouts of depression. And you know, as a teenager, you don't want to admit that you need help.

kj (01:14.347)
Thank you.

Madison Cooke (01:35.682)
There's a bunch of stigma, which I think is getting better, but I didn't like that I was different than my peers. I didn't want to go to therapy. So it was kind of a fight with my parents, as it is with many kids, you know? But once I was there and I found a good fit with a therapist, it was, I know it's very cliche to say, but it was kind of life changing.

kj (01:52.095)
Hmm.

Madison Cooke (02:05.134)
to have someone to talk to as a teenager that was outside of family. So that's what kind of started it, you know, having my own experience in therapy and seeing my own problems kind of getting worked through. So you know, I was in high school and I was interested in the brain, how it worked. I was in a high school that offered psychology, a psychology course.

I had taken that as well and I was like, oh, well, this is kind of cool. I don't know what I want to do in college. So maybe this is what I'll lean into. So undergrad, that's kind of what I focused on. Got my undergrad degree in psychology and that's what kind of led me into my first real world job being gay, RBT therapist, um, doing ABA therapy and loved doing that, working with children.

And then I found, you know, I want to work with more children. I want to expand a little bit. So doing some research and talking to friends of mine who had gone into the counseling field, I found that, you know, I loved helping people. I wanted to expand working with children and with adults and teenagers. Um, like the people who had helped me. And that's really how I got into the field of mental health. Just.

wanting to give back to the people that had helped me at such a young age and that's kind of how I got here.

kj (03:39.119)
Awesome. So I know, because you know, I love play therapy. It's one of the things that I adore and one of my many things. But so I know a little bit about it before the folks out there that are the lay person or even other clinicians who don't quite understand what it takes to be a play therapist. Can you give the audience that's listening or watching some information or background information about what it takes to be a play therapist?

Madison Cooke (03:47.199)
Yeah.

kj (04:08.453)
a plate therapist specifically.

Madison Cooke (04:11.85)
Yeah, so for me, I also had no idea what it was until I got to graduate school.

kj (04:19.631)
And they're like, oh my gosh, there's a whole other thing.

Madison Cooke (04:22.962)
Yeah, and I think I was lucky enough where my university actually offered the gadget certificate for it. So I knew that I loved working with kids and I knew that it had to do with kids, so I was like, okay, maybe I'll take like a course or two just for an elective, and found that it was something I really enjoyed. So that's kind of my start into it, but um so that's how I

That's how I know how to do it. So I took the graduate certificate for it. Some universities offer it. I know there's like continuing education for it, but that's how I got into it. So for me, my path is taking the graduate certificate and then doing some post-graduation supervision for it to get to the fully registered play therapist title.

kj (05:15.115)
Awesome. That's amazing. So for our audience and when they listen to this, it will have already happened. But what happens on Friday?

Madison Cooke (05:27.71)
Yes, so Friday is my graduation ceremony. Yes. Very exciting.

kj (05:33.463)
Yay, we're so excited. Yeah. Yeah, we're very proud of you. We're very proud of you. Yeah, it's gonna be awesome. And you've just passed your board, right? So back in my day when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, you had to take the board after you graduated. Now you get to take it before you graduate.

Madison Cooke (05:41.944)
Yes, I'm super excited.

Madison Cooke (05:48.576)
I did.

Madison Cooke (05:57.087)
Yes.

kj (05:58.899)
So that's awesome. So tell the audience a little bit about like the process, cause we actually talked a little bit about it last night. So a lot of folks don't realize like everything that you have to do. So maybe you could talk a little bit now about next steps for you now that you've.

Madison Cooke (06:17.355)
Right.

kj (06:23.987)
Gosh, now you've finished your graduate program and you've taken your board and you're getting ready to graduate. What are some of the next steps for you?

Madison Cooke (06:34.826)
Yeah, so right now I'm in the process of, you know, going through the North Carolina licensing application, which is quite long. So, you know, it's a bunch of like getting some paperwork together and a lot of information from my university. And so it's a bunch of steps of getting everything verified and getting all the coursework.

kj (07:00.715)
Yup.

Madison Cooke (07:02.254)
or like the course information together, verifying what courses I took, verifying all my field work experience, verifying my exam scores, getting all of the professional references together. And there's more, you know, for getting something.

kj (07:18.795)
Okay.

Yeah, letters of recommendation. From supervisors and now you have to get a supervisor from the state to verify another 3000 hours, right? You're like, oh yes, Kelly, thank you for reminding me of that. So it's just beginning.

Madison Cooke (07:25.066)
Right, yeah, so getting all of that together. Yeah.

Madison Cooke (07:41.588)
Oh, yes, so.

Madison Cooke (07:46.894)
Right. I know. I've already got my list started of things I need to do.

kj (07:50.987)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so, you know, as we were talking about on the phone last night, you know, then you also have to like register with CAQH, which is like our database for getting credentialed with a lot of the insurance companies and you have to register for an NPI number, which is our universal number that you're assigned for life. It's like a social security number almost, you know, so that's how we bill.

Madison Cooke (08:01.974)
Yes.

Madison Cooke (08:17.75)
Yes, and they don't tell you about this in school. Right? You'll have to figure it out on your own.

kj (08:21.283)
Yes, they don't. They don't. That's why you better pick somebody that loves you, children, or you're not gonna survive.

kj (08:34.439)
Yeah, yeah. So it's just evolving ball of cluster. Yeah. So yeah, it's amazing because the interviews I've done so far have been with folks that have like, you know, they've been doing it a while. So they're not at this fresh part that they read. They don't remember quite that, you know. Yes, it's kind of new. So when we were talking about it, I'm like, oh, we're going to bring this up. So.

Madison Cooke (08:49.674)
night. Yeah.

Madison Cooke (08:55.502)
Thank you.

kj (09:01.759)
So folks can hear about it and either remember it or if they're on the outside, they can hear about it and they can go, what the heck, I didn't know that.

Madison Cooke (09:08.398)
Well yeah, I'm thankful because I definitely have you guiding me through it and I have some friends who have also either been through it and they're still new in the field, like a year or two into it, and have some friends who are going through it at the same time as me so are all trying to figure it out at the same time. So I'm definitely not alone in the process.

kj (09:36.055)
Yeah, it's the nice thing to have community around you to help you out. And remember what I say, trust nobody and keep copies.

Madison Cooke (09:40.71)
Oh, for sure, for sure.

Madison Cooke (09:47.881)
Oh yeah. You either write everything down or print everything.

kj (09:51.691)
Exactly, exactly. Start making your book, your binders, you know, keep it going. I mean, you're young, you could put it on a computer, but I can never find any of those files. Alright, I had enough. I have more questions for you, Madison, because everybody out there is going to want to know. They're going to want to know. So what are some of the biggest challenges you've had going through this process, you think, personally?

Madison Cooke (09:54.994)
Right.

Madison Cooke (10:05.276)
I know.

Madison Cooke (10:20.43)
Goodness, I'm definitely gonna come from the student standpoint on this. So I think the biggest challenges and I've heard this from my classmates as well is just trying to find the balance between being a student, being an intern, and just being, you know, like a family member, being a friend, being, you know, whatever the title is. It's hard.

kj (10:25.727)
Yeah.

Madison Cooke (10:48.378)
especially when you're in kind of like the field work or like internship part of the program, it's been it's I say probably the hardest part which you know it's rewarding we love what we do but finding the balance between you know being available getting your hours getting um all that you need for your coursework while also you know finding time for yourself finding time

kj (11:00.174)
Yeah.

Madison Cooke (11:18.258)
or even a lot of people still have to have a second job. It's been very difficult, you know, to find that identity and like still stay true to yourself and take care of yourself. So that's been such a big challenge and you know, dealing with the burnout. Cause you know, we're taught as counselors, you know, to not burn ourselves out, to take care of ourselves, to take time off.

But as a student, you know you can't really do that. You have to kind of keep going. So we're taught, you know, do self care, don't let yourself burn out, but we also have to keep going. We're not allowed to just miss assignments or to not get hours for internship. So you're kind of stuck in this gray area of, like not knowing what to do of.

you know, wanting to take care of yourself, wanting to take time off, but then you kind of get stressed out with, you know, getting behind in hours or missing assignments and stuff. So I would say that's the tough, the toughest part of the program is trying to keep up with everything.

kj (12:31.591)
Yeah, it's a lot.

Madison Cooke (12:33.97)
it is. Which again, like he said, having that community has been super helpful of knowing that you're not alone in it and other people are feeling that way. So yeah, so definitely we have these um like internship classes where we can kind of do our case consultation and um talk about what we've been going through. Those have been very therapeutic for us

kj (12:35.647)
Yeah.

kj (12:45.16)
helps.

Madison Cooke (13:03.038)
release everything that's been going on. So we all just kind of go like, you know, I'm stressed, I'm burnt out, and everyone just goes, you know what, me too. And just knowing that you're not alone, it feels good.

kj (13:05.738)
Yeah.

kj (13:16.203)
Kind of.

Yeah, that's good. I'm glad you guys have that. So I want to ask, you know, I think every, I would say kind of generation of therapists that I see kind of coming up, they have their own unique set of challenges based on what they have in front of them. What do you think yours will be?

Madison Cooke (13:31.16)
Mm-hmm.

Madison Cooke (13:47.229)
Ooh, that's a good question.

Madison Cooke (13:53.694)
I'm sure this has been said before. I think it goes with the burnout again, but, you know, we go into this field wanting to help people. And I don't think we're always taught the boundaries of that.

at least in which don't get me wrong I love my program I think my program was great but you know we don't go into this because we don't want to help people we do want to help people and sometimes we overextend ourselves because of that and I don't think new graduates and even as interns we always have the best

when to kind of let ourselves end and our clients begin.

So I think that's kind of a big struggle that I've seen with myself and even my classmates, you know, is just knowing when.

to not put in more effort than our clients are willing to put in.

kj (15:14.663)
Yeah, I think that's a struggle we all have. You know, and learning how to manage that flow is a difficult sometimes. You want to hit that off button for them.

Madison Cooke (15:15.766)
Mm-hmm.

Madison Cooke (15:19.189)
Mm-hmm.

Madison Cooke (15:25.707)
Right.

Madison Cooke (15:33.538)
No, sometimes I catch myself like in the middle of session. I'm like, I'm trying to get you to this point. I'm trying to get you to understand. I'm like, wait a second. It's like, I feel myself putting a little bit more energy into this. And it's like, I, I love you. I care about you. But I can't allow myself to put more into this than you're willing to.

kj (15:42.542)
Yeah.

kj (16:00.019)
Hmm. Yeah. And I think you and I were there like a couple of weeks ago with the young man. Like. Hello. There's a reciprocal thing going on here. Let's have some questions back and forth.

Madison Cooke (16:03.606)
That's what I've seen.

Madison Cooke (16:10.674)
Oh yeah.

Madison Cooke (16:15.272)
Uh huh.

Madison Cooke (16:21.255)
Right.

kj (16:26.402)
That's how conversation works! And if you don't want to do that, I'm done! Go on!

Madison Cooke (16:29.044)
I know.

Mm-hmm. Right.

kj (16:36.679)
I'm probably teaching you bad habits now.

Madison Cooke (16:40.754)
No, I just think that it leads to us not burning ourselves out again.

kj (16:46.559)
Well, I think so. I mean, and I think if we don't start having those types of conversations, then we do get burnt out.

Madison Cooke (16:53.813)
Mm-hmm.

Right. And like I said, it's not really taught in school.

kj (17:00.963)
No, that's why we have to model it sometimes very rudely. Y'all need to come hang out with Madison and I sometime. You'll hear some really fun things. Okay.

Madison Cooke (17:04.214)
Nice.

Madison Cooke (17:11.246)
I'm sorry.

kj (17:18.451)
We're laughing, inside joke, okay. So, I wanna ask you, and I ask everybody who comes, what's your definition of mental wellness? Because you know, I love that the medical profession, like the medical side of the house has this great model. They have numbers for everything, like know your numbers, like blood pressure.

Madison Cooke (17:20.43)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Madison Cooke (17:39.339)
Mm-hmm.

kj (17:46.147)
60 over 120 like that's great and like Blood sugar, you know what it is cholesterol We don't really do a good job of Knowing what mentally well looks like we could tell you what mental illness looks like These are the symptoms of depression. These are the symptoms of anxiety You know, I hope I've done a really good job of teaching you what DMDD looks like and rad and

Madison Cooke (18:02.847)
Mm-hmm.

Madison Cooke (18:13.806)
Mm-hmm.

kj (18:14.007)
BPD and all those kinds of things, but we don't really say, oh, this looks like resiliency. This is mental wellness. So that's really what my hope is that we develop something that goes, wow, this is mental wellness. This is what being mentally and spiritually well looks like. What do you think? What's your idea?

Madison Cooke (18:43.23)
I think I probably stole this from you. I feel like I've heard this from you at some point, but I do Sure, I know you've told me all these things and they just stuck in my head But I do view this like mental wellness from the mind body spirit aspect so I do think they have to work together in this kind of like dance of Coming together in harmony

kj (18:49.375)
Good.

kj (18:56.435)
done it.

Madison Cooke (19:12.27)
to really formulate this wellness kind of model. So looking at the mind, body and spirit, and I think it can look different from everybody, of course, people are diverse, you know, they don't have this like textbook cookie cutter aspect to being human, but like mental wellness and resiliency, I think it really is just, you know.

when stress, when issues arise, being able to bounce back from that, not letting these issues really define them or bring them down or, you know, let them stick to them and using the mind, body, and spirit to bounce back from it. So whether that's, you know, coping skills that they've learned or prayer or using community resources.

whatever that may be that really resonates with the client.

Whatever, you know, they choose. And again, humans are diverse. They're gonna choose many different things. But, you know, just the ability to bounce back, not letting those things bring them down is what I think resiliency is and overall mental wellness.

kj (20:34.655)
Okay, so what are some of the ones that work best for you? What do you think?

Madison Cooke (20:41.518)
For me, I enjoy reading. So reading is a big one for me. And I like social connection, being able to connect with family and friends. So if it's been a long day, you know, I won't go immediately into like notes, progress notes or doing homework or something. I'll...

go right out of my office and talk to a friend or family. I like to connect to people.

then at night reading a book. I like to be with myself for a little bit, you know, do a little bit of meditation, being able to socially connect and then connect with myself in ways that make me feel grounded. So that's what I kind of do for myself.

kj (21:35.379)
Yeah, I like that. I like that. Neat. All right. People are picking up some good little nuggets if they're listening. Mm-hmm. I like it. So I wanna ask you, because I think this is really important because you've mentioned something really good that if we can bounce back from our failures, then...

Madison Cooke (21:46.332)
I hope so.

Madison Cooke (22:02.964)
Mm-hmm.

kj (22:04.243)
we're okay. Have there any, have there been in your life, any like big failures or losses that you've overcame and you've been like, Hey, I did it. I'm like, this was something bad, but I, I pushed through it. And you're like, this is good.

Madison Cooke (22:23.484)
there's been many times throughout

Like my last job is in RBT working with children, even now throughout my internship experience, you know, I've made many mistakes. Or times where I'm like, man, I wish I would have caught that, or I wish I would have said something differently, done something differently. Like, Kelly, why do you catch these things and I don't? But.

kj (22:35.377)
Thank you.

kj (22:51.727)
I'm old, you're young, that's the only reason, and you've not made very many mistakes, that's a lie, so...

Madison Cooke (23:00.054)
Yeah, but it's like, and I've talked to you about this before, I do get hard on myself about those things like wishing I either know more or that I didn't make the mistake or things like that and it's followed me from my last job to like this internship stuff. Um, but I think, you know, those mistakes and not knowing.

at the time those mistakes has made me learn more. Because after each mistake, I've researched, I've watched videos, I've read articles. You know, even you have sent me stuff on the topic so that I could learn more and I read, read or watch every single one of them so that I can learn more. So I feel like every mistake has made me grow so much more. If I haven't.

had made that mistake, I don't think I would know the things that I know now. So I am thankful, you know, for all of those mistakes and failures and wishing I had known more at the time because now I do know more. And I continue to know more because of making those small mistakes and you tell me all the time like, Madison, we're not perfect. We're going to make mistakes. Like we're human.

kj (24:20.307)
Yeah, I make them every day. Please don't list mine. We'll be here all day long.

Madison Cooke (24:25.146)
Thank you.

Madison Cooke (24:29.035)
So, yeah, I guess I'm just thankful for, like, the humanness of us all of making the mistakes and being able to learn and grow from them.

kj (24:43.051)
to because I think it's that truth that in that mistake is where the growth happens. That is how we can connect. Right? And I think if we can handle each other with gentleness during that moment, it's really when goodness can happen between people. Right?

Madison Cooke (24:50.043)
Mm-hmm, for sure.

Yeah.

Madison Cooke (25:04.288)
Mm-hmm.

kj (25:12.147)
If I could be vulnerable and accept the correction of the person, right? Then that's when true intimacy really begins. And I think that's the nice part, right? Yeah, so I like that. I think that's a really kind of sweet part of it all.

Madison Cooke (25:16.066)
Mm-hmm.

Madison Cooke (25:21.29)
right.

Madison Cooke (25:31.799)
Mm-hmm.

kj (25:34.471)
I did want to ask, do you feel like there's anything, and I always ask everyone, that you have learned in our time together that you would want to share with folks? Anything special? Like, you're like, this is like your five minutes of fame, girl. Like, you're like, here's my nugget of wisdom.

Madison Cooke (25:58.782)
I think continuing on with the mistakes and I'm gonna speak to any like new students in a program or people currently in their internship phase or even like new graduates like it's hard and you're going to make mistakes like I am there I have been there but I just think

The whole thing, the mistakes, the experience is so worth it. And this is the time to make mistakes and to make as many mistakes as you can, not on purpose, but like to make them now. Because there are so many people that want to support you either at your university, at your site, even your classmates, your community. Like there are people that want you to thrive.

So, I'm, through this experience, that's what I've wanted to do, make the most out of this experience, and to gain as much knowledge that I can while I'm here with you, because there's so much to learn, and I'm continuing to learn. And what I found out is that I don't know anything, and I'm okay with that, because there's so much to know in this field.

like so many theories and so many techniques and we're always going to be learning. And I think that's the cool thing about this field is that there's always so much to either do like our continuing education on or to research or to learn with the client about what they bring in. So it's kind of for me,

like nice to know that I don't always have to be the expert, that I don't have to know everything at all times, that I can kind of just be there with the client in the relationship and to just be there with them and we can have a conversation and we can learn together and grow together. And I think that's.

Madison Cooke (28:19.906)
What's comforting about this field is just knowing that there's always room to grow and learn.

kj (28:27.111)
I think you're absolutely right. And we can't know it all. We can't know it all. And it's nice to just know that sometimes you're just there to be in relationship with folks.

Madison Cooke (28:29.503)
Mm-hmm.

Madison Cooke (28:33.047)
Yeah.

Madison Cooke (28:44.175)
Right.

kj (28:47.943)
I like that.

Well, I really appreciate that you entrusted me to spend time with me and hang out with my crazy self and deal with the vast swing of my beautiful folks that spend time with me on a weekly basis. They are delightful and they are. And I treasure them with every.

Madison Cooke (29:13.609)
Oh, they are.

kj (29:19.851)
part of who I am and I appreciate that you had the same heart and I could see that from the moment I met you and it's just been awesome to see that just grow with you and you know it really has been and I'm so proud of you. I just can't even. You're like my baby. All my kids, I get the same way.

Madison Cooke (29:50.434)
You have definitely made this experience worthwhile and I have loved every second of it and you already know that I'm not going far, that you can't get rid of me.

kj (30:00.018)
He passed.

not. You're my girl. So we wish you well. We know you're going to come back on season two. Like this is a teaser, but Madison does this great course on boundaries guys. Oh, it's good y'all. It's good. She wrecked my world with it. Anyway, so we're, we look forward to that. We wish her well and we'll get some updates on graduation. So that's very exciting too.

Yeah. So remember wherever you are in the world, when you tune in to Heart of the Matter, you're home. So thanks for being with us again. Please like, subscribe, and share our video. Thank you for being with us today, Madison. We appreciate you. Okay. So thanks everybody. We enjoy you guys. Love ya.

Madison Cooke (30:48.73)
Thank you for having me.