J (00:02.553)
Hello everyone, welcome to Heart of the Matter. This is Kelly Hart. If you have not yet subscribed, liked, and shared, please do so. I am so honored today to have one of my best friends, my closest allies, and somebody you guys are just going to fall in love with too, Claire Tran Burnett. Claire, welcome to the Heart of the Matter.

clare (00:27.022)
Thank you, Kelly. I appreciate it. What a nice introduction.

KJ (00:31.486)
Well, you know, it probably could have been better. You are one of the greatest treasures in my life and I am so absolutely honored to spend this time with you today. And I want everybody to know how special you are. Could you tell the audience a little bit about yourself? Where you come from in the world? How you got here and how we got to know each other?

clare (00:57.186)
So, my father was a soldier in the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so when Saigon fell in 1975, my family left Saigon and we came to the United States as refugees. But really, I'm very American, you know, I'm an American citizen. It took me forever.

I had a green card for the longest time, but I really embrace the American life because I was only five when I got here. And so it's been a long time. I do straddle both cultures and maybe even like a third of military culture because my husband's also a soldier. But since coming here, we've really acclimated. We love it here.

You know, English is now my first language and I worked in legal for almost 20 years, but really my passion has always been in counseling, even as a younger person. So I got the, you know, the nerve to go back to school and got my degree and then so here I am and I got lucky enough to.

He hired on it thrive where you were the clinical supervisor. And so that's how I know you. And it's been just the best journey.

KJ (02:29.325)
Thank you. So tell people a little bit because what I've been trying to do this first season is give people a little bit of the understanding about what the process is towards or the path towards licensure for folks that are becoming therapists and you are a licensed clinical mental health counselor. You just submitted your packet towards full licensure.

clare (02:47.758)
Thanks for watching!

clare (02:56.726)
Yep.

KJ (02:56.894)
Woo, shut up. We're very excited about that. So a little bit about that process for you.

clare (03:04.866)
Well, man, they make you work for it. But in the end, we're clinicians, right? So we have this, I mean, I believe we have this really important obligation and responsibility to help others in a clinical setting. So, you know, once you have your bachelor's, you apply for grad school. And so because of the type of work,

KJ (03:25.145)
Hmm?

clare (03:33.75)
that we do, if you don't have the prerequisites, you might end up taking more classes in grad school. But I actually had done a bachelor's in social science and a minor in psychology, so I had a lot of the classes that I needed, thankfully. So it's a 60-hour grad school requirement, right? So I thought everybody did 60 hours, Kelly.

No, you know, like law school is 48 hours.

Yeah, an MBA I think is 48 hours. And I have a friend who has a master's in biology and hers was 32 hours. So honestly, I don't think all grad degrees are equal. It's pretty intense. And then we have like, you know, 360 hours of clinical work that is required, that's unpaid as practicum interns. And then we have like,

180 hours of non-contact work. And so there is a lot that goes into it. That's just to graduate, right? I mean, you've been there. So once you graduate and you apply for licensure, you become an associate. And then at least in North Carolina, it's 2000 hours of direct contact work, either with groups or individuals. And then at least 1000 hours of non-contact work. Meetings, supervision, paperwork.

research, CEUs. It's a journey. So like, when I get my licensure, it's going to be a huge event.

KJ (05:09.897)
Mm-hmm.

KJ (05:18.345)
Right. And so really what I want folks to understand out there is that you're not practicing underneath really yourself per se because you have to have those 2000 hours under the supervision of someone who is a licensed supervisor by the state. Right. And that's how we've become.

you know, now fully friends, not just supervisor, supervisee.

clare (05:50.378)
And mentor, don't forget, you've been an amazing mentor to me. So I think it's important for people to also understand that you don't become a supervisor. You have to do a lot to become a supervisor, right? So it's on top of being a licensed therapist, there are more steps, there's more education, there are more responsibilities to being a supervisor. So.

KJ (05:54.398)
Right.

clare (06:16.098)
Thank you for that, because you have been supervising me for the majority of my time. And it's been great. Thank you.

KJ (06:23.505)
Yeah, and there's also an exam you have to take and pass. And, you know, there's so many steps here and that is really, you know, what you have to do to even start really making an active living. And that can have that can take many, many years after you graduate. And so I think people misunderstand that you can go to school, get a graduate degree.

graduate and support yourself. It just doesn't happen in this field very easily. It's such a, you know, it takes away such talented people from providing help to those who desperately need it. Right.

clare (07:10.902)
Yeah, I mean, I like that there are, I assume that these requirements are safeguards for patients, but sometimes it doesn't feel like that when you think of other industries or other clinicians working in other fields too.

KJ (07:30.905)
Yeah. And so that kind of leads me to my next question. You know, what do you think are some of the barriers that are there for young professionals? And I don't mean young and age wise, but new professionals coming into this field.

clare (07:48.878)
Um, you know, I think that depending on where you go to school, right? Um, if the school doesn't have a structure in place to kind of help you find jobs and find internships and practicum sites, then that's your first challenge, right? And then, um, after you graduate, it's great, but then you still have to find a job. So if you didn't get hired at your

intern site or your practicum site and that could be for many reasons. You move or whatever you have to go and you have to hustle and you have to go find this job. Not everybody is willing to supervise. Right? I mean I feel like there's a dearth of good supervisors. What if you find a supervisor that is subpar for you? I've talked to people who are like well I don't ask my supervisor that and

how are you learning, right? So there's this whole process where you have to go find the work, if you're gonna be an independent contractor or employee, you have to figure out your CU. So you have to figure out your supervisor, you have to figure out a schedule that's good for you. I mean, it's just this huge learning curve when you first come on, even though school prepares you, it doesn't quite prepare you for the reality of being on your own.

KJ (09:13.605)
Yeah. And so that's kind of something I would really stress to anybody who's thinking about this is really understanding how complex and how enriched you can be if you find the right supervisor, but also how damaged you can be if you find the wrong one, right? Because it could really crush your soul.

clare (09:35.986)
It can, and then you don't learn. You know, I find that if I don't have rapport with someone or if there's not trust, I'm not going to ask them questions or get everything I need to. And what we do is so like multi-layered, right? You know, just being, spending time with you, talking about diagnoses and talking about different...

modalities, if you don't constantly talk about this, you can't rely just on yourself because you know, experience, you know, being exposed to different types of therapists and modalities, that's so important.

KJ (10:24.597)
Yeah, I think so too. And I'm going to apologize to anybody who may be listening. I live outside Nashville and we are having some major storms roll through. So if you hear any background noise or lights flicker, thunder, it's not an audio issue. It's just, you know, as my mama would say back in the day, it's just God bowling y'all. Don't get distressed.

clare (10:40.983)
Yeah

clare (10:49.688)
We don't have that yet, thank goodness. I'm done with each other.

KJ (10:54.033)
Yeah, so Claire's in North Carolina and I'm outside Nashville, Tennessee. So we're in different places, but still connected by heart. But I did wanna throw that out if you guys hear any weird stuff in the background. So Claire, what are some big life lessons that you have learned personally, that apply, that you've gone through that really have helped you career-wise, do you think?

clare (11:24.43)
You know, it's really funny because I feel like most of us who go into this type of work have experienced the, you know, the, I want to say trauma that our patients have gone through. Like we've actually lived some of this. So there's a lot of empathy. And I think that has helped me.

with my patients, with my clients, right? Like drawing on being able to be vulnerable with them and like a slight amount of disclosure and sharing, I think that has been really important. And being like, you know, not all knowing, right?

KJ (12:14.229)
Right. Yeah, I think that's very important. Absolutely. Because people need to understand that you too are human. And while you can't tell everybody your stuff, because it's not your time, it's their time. But when they can see that you too are just a human being doing life and you've corrected your stuff, then they can feel safe with you with their stuff. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Yeah, that's very beautiful. So what do you think are some of the challenges that you see on the horizon for our field?

clare (12:55.506)
I think it is, you know, I hate to say it, but we do have some issues with, you know, barriers to treatment, especially in the military community, not only because of the stigma, but because the way the military medical services work. So a lot of our people have a barrier to even be seen, right?

And I think that that's more prevalent today because of insurance. All insurance is not equal. For example, I had a client who got a new job and they gave her this great insurance policy, but her copay for therapy was $125, which is more than what...

KJ (13:26.794)
Absolutely.

clare (13:50.822)
I even charge for out of pocket per hour.

clare (13:56.93)
All right, so it was insane. And when you have that, I mean, not a lot of people can afford to pay $125 every week, right? I know I certainly couldn't. I mean, I would try to make it work, but I mean, how long can a person sustain that? So I think the insurance and there's still a little bit of stigma to it. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but I think those are our biggest. It's the...

the medical field in general and how they treat mental health.

KJ (14:33.089)
Yeah, I get that. I've been asking everybody that comes to sit with me, the medical, speaking of the medical field, the medical field has done a really good job capturing everyone with this idea of know your numbers, like know your blood pressure because that's gonna keep you healthy, know your heart rate, like know your BMI, by the way, you're not gonna know mine.

Like know your weight, know your blood sugar. Like they're giving you these kind of guardrail things so you know what physical wellness looks like Whereas our community doesn't really do that. What they do is they're like, oh depressed Here's a pill. Let me tell you what depression looks like. Like are you sad? Are you listless? You know, are you angry?

clare (15:01.166)
Yes.

KJ (15:28.857)
and they advertise the hell out of all these pharmaceuticals on television. Right? To like, you know, and I see it on, you know, for bipolar medicines and ADHD medicines and these types of things. But what we have not done as a consensus with multiple professionals stated, well, what are our numbers? And I'm using their words because there are no numbers, but

What are the numbers for mental wellness? So what are our descriptors for mental wellness? So for you, what does mental wellness look like? And for you, how do you stay mentally well?

clare (16:17.91)
Woo, that's hard, right? I mean, we all have a different baseline. I would say for the longest time, I was really mentally unwell probably in my 20s, but I didn't know it. You know, cause that was my, yeah, that was my baseline. I'm like, okay, this is life, right? So at my age now with my years of therapy,

KJ (16:34.442)
Look what he talks about.

clare (16:46.514)
I feel like it's being able to have hope every day, being able to identify when I am not feeling myself, which again, depends on the person it's subject of, right? And checking off a really simple list, do I have social support? Do I have meaningful relationships? Am I able to do what I need to do?

Am I feeling distress, right? Like, I was so depressed in my 20s, but I didn't recognize it as distress. I just thought that was life. All right, so now I'm able to see, oh, okay, I'm not angry with the world. I'm not, you know, hopeless. I don't feel everything is negative. And those are like, for me, signs that I'm not well.

KJ (17:49.017)
So really I hear you say having the insight to check in on you, right? Like taking your own mental temperature and being able to read it, you know, I'm such a picture person, right? I'm not great with words, but I can see pictures. It's so.

clare (18:00.694)
Yeah!

clare (18:08.226)
Well that's perfect because you just took my whole thing and made it understandable.

KJ (18:14.861)
So when you say it, like in my mind's eye, I see you like having like a temperature check, like a thermometer and you read it and you're like, I'm checking my mental temperature and all of these things I'm reading, you know, I'm reading, am I like, do I have friends and am I checking in on them and they check in on me? I'm checking my depression, I'm checking my anxiety, where am I reading it?

If I'm angry, like it's not the world, it's me, I can adjust, what can I do for me? I know you're very into your physical fitness and your yoga and like regulating, so am I doing it? So that would be all your temperature check, right? And like, it's like the old school thermometer, not this digital crap, but the old school thermometer. Like you shake it down, right? Like when it got too high in any of them, you'd shake that down, like until you got it back.

clare (18:58.883)
Yeah.

clare (19:03.315)
Oh no!

KJ (19:11.681)
where it needed to be. Am I like somewhere near the center of that?

clare (19:16.27)
Yeah, and I love that you said that way in such a understandable way. You know, like, I think any person can say, oh, okay, I make my own, like, criteria once I figure out, you know, and then I can check it because, you know, the problem with identifying mental wellness...

It's not like, oh, you go into the doctor's office and you have high blood pressure. Well, there's the fact, right? How do we measure mental wellness in each person?

KJ (19:53.805)
Because the truth of the matter is like I'm a very social person by nature. I have lots of relationships with many different people kinds of people types of people. I mean I will quite frankly Talk to my giraffe and he talks back and he has a personality So I That's me but

clare (20:14.188)
Hahaha!

KJ (20:23.649)
For example, my husband is not that way. He's quite content not speaking at all to anyone. And so my temperature would be like if I'm not interacting or connecting with 50 people a day, that would be my check, right? His might be like if I didn't speak to my wife in five days, I might be, you see?

clare (20:48.642)
Hahaha

KJ (20:52.245)
It's very different for every individual, their temperature check. That's why it's so abstract, but I think we do have to start having these conversations. That's why we have school shooters. That's why we have mass killings because no one is talking to anybody about even identifying.

any of this. It's just like let's medicate the world or ignore the world or hate parts of the world and then just not even...

clare (21:25.774)
Well, it's so true. I read a lot about what's going on in the world as far as mental wellness. And I think that a lot of the media is saying, oh, we're at crisis levels, right? But it's really lip service. Oh, it's so bad. OK. But what are you going to do about it? Like, who's actually reforming systems, making it available to people so that?

you know, how do I identify it? Who do you need to, you know, where do you go? So it's just like very surface level stuff that says, yeah, we have a problem, but we're not gonna actually do anything about it.

KJ (22:09.301)
Right. And so that's where my frustration lies. And that's why I hope by having these conversations with different people, with different perspectives, who do this work in different ways, that maybe we can expound upon it and people listen. And I am so simple minded that maybe they'll get it with my colloquialism.

clare (22:29.425)
Try.

KJ (22:32.737)
But I do hope so because I just want people to hear it, maybe through these different lenses and start to kind of think, I can have an internal temperature check.

clare (22:45.806)
people to do that, you know, especially, but I can only reach my client.

I can only talk to my clients and say, okay, let's figure out what works for you. Imagine if you're taught at an early age, 12, 13, hey, what are your feelings? I mean, obviously you could start younger, but the younger you are, the harder it is to kind of look at abstract things. But have this dialogue with people where we're like, oh, do you know if something's wrong?

Where do you go? Who do you talk to? I feel like still a lot of people don't know what to do. I wish people dead.

KJ (23:30.881)
Well, it's really my hope beyond all hope that these kind of conversations as people listen will spark within them the understanding that we're also unique. We're uniquely gifted. We have our own internal space, right? In our own rich internal worlds, they're going to be different, right? We can't standardize that, but we can have empathy for each other and we can understand that things are different.

And we can start having conversations around that, how to support one another, how we can kind of like give that space, but also help frame that up for everybody. But then if we start living like that, we can mirror and model that for our kids and for friends. Right? And then maybe that creates change at whatever level so that we're healthier. That's, wouldn't that be so nice?

clare (24:26.466)
That would be great. That would be really wonderful. That would be nice. I think we would see a major shift in just the world, like politics and the state of things. It would be a huge difference.

KJ (24:45.257)
Yeah. So rather than culturally dividing us and shifting us and victim blaming and you're bad because you're this and you're bad because you're that, it would rather than pointing out how we're different makes us bad. It would be like, it's okay that you're different. I love you anyway. And what we just do instead is understand that our differences are okay.

We just understand how to manage our differences within mental health to make us mentally well, and we regulate that in so that we can tolerate, love one another, work towards being reasonable, so we can have discourse that is not harmful.

clare (25:27.094)
Yeah, and it's because everybody is dysregulated in some way nowadays, right? I mean, and again, media and even government is polarizing. So people are not able to regulate their emotions. They're not able to process them. They're not able to discuss them. There's sometimes I can't even identify them. And as you know, the unhappy you are inside the...

worse it's going to be outwardly to other people, right? Sometimes you say, why do people act like that? They don't even know why they act like that. They're just so hurt inside.

KJ (26:06.361)
they are. So that's really what part of my deepest heart's desire is for this, just to really maybe give people this alternative framework to hope, to cope, and to build a resiliency.

clare (26:24.95)
Yeah, I'm excited because I feel like your podcast can not theropize, which is my favorite word. My husband says that to me, don't theropize me. But to give people like tips and ideas and in broader understanding so that they can go seek help or maybe things just kind of click with them like, oh, I've been like that, is that what you know?

and give them the, you know, I don't want to say courage, but at least the wherewithal to get help if they need it, or at least feel less isolated.

KJ (27:07.337)
Yeah, and maybe some empowerment, I think. Right? Just, you know, one thing I always try to like impart, especially to the young women I see is like, man, my girls breathe fire. I will teach you to breathe fire. Right?

because you have to plant that fire in people, not for destruction, but just to be able to make it sometimes for themselves, a resiliency. That fire is resiliency, not to destroy or consume, but just to grow and to empower and to live.

clare (27:38.594)
Thank you.

clare (27:49.002)
Yeah, fire is very life-giving, isn't it?

KJ (27:52.305)
Mm-hmm, it is. And so that's kind of what I'm hoping that people will grab onto things and just like, I got that fire. I can, I can live, I can grow, I can be better. You know, maybe it's just that one little thing I hear it's Claire's thermometer and I can apply that just to get me through till I can find the right therapist and get the skills I need to figure out why I do what I do to move to the next level. Right?

clare (28:20.046)
Great, yeah.

KJ (28:20.845)
That's awesome, Claire. Thanks so much for that. So if you had just like five minutes to share the like pearls of wisdom with the world, what would it be? What would you give to everybody out there that's like, yeah, this is what you need to know to move to the next level? Any of that, what do you think? What would it be?

clare (28:44.563)
Oh gosh.

I think if I could wish something for everyone, and there's so much, but I really would wish mindfulness, being able to check in with themselves and being mindful of what reality is, right? Like so many times we see the world through a lens of our perception, and sometimes our perception is not real. And so that takes away...

empathy and loving kindness for others. I think mindfulness can bring that back. Just being able to say, well, I'm not the only person in this world. Right. So my thoughts may be irrational or they might be rational. And, you know, I, I'm not articulating it well. And I feel like I need like a Kelly translator so that I can say it and you can tell the world what I really mean.

But I think it would be mindfulness and objectivity in how we perceive the world and ourselves.

KJ (29:52.797)
I will say that you know, you taught me a wonderful breathing technique of grounding and deep breathing and I practice it now every morning before I start work and I practice it before I leave my office and it truly incorporates mindfulness, spirituality. It helps me release the tension from all parts of my body. It helps me with chronic pain.

It's helped me center myself. It's helped me with perspective and it's really given me a gift and I appreciate it so much.

clare (30:33.442)
Kelly, you're making me feel like a stud right now, like, what?

KJ (30:36.409)
You are a rock star woman. You are a rock star. So just that little five minutes of giving me that gift has really opened up so much.

clare (30:47.886)
Thank you. That really means so much to me because, you know, that's really what it's for. But to hear it is kind of mind blowing.

KJ (30:58.213)
Well, it, you know, anybody that has the opportunity to, to train under Claire, to hear what she has to offer openly and then apply it to their lives, you know, and I'm a Kelly trained. So I usually take what everybody's got and then warp it in my own way. So it, it's been wonderful. And I have used it in practice since like, I use it with my own patients. So, and they love it.

clare (31:26.446)
Oh yay! Oh good, good. Thank you.

KJ (31:28.161)
I've loved it. So just know that what you have done for me is now being replicated everywhere in the Kelly world.

clare (31:40.087)
Yay! You know, if it could be that powerful, I mean, I really do think breathing and meditation have saved my life, but if it could be that powerful and you can take it and put it out there, that would just be like the most amazing thing in the world.

KJ (31:57.209)
Yeah. And I think what people have to understand, and it can be a positive thing or a negative thing that we do with ourselves. Right? So one thing I have loved about counseling and making positive change and impact in people's lives, it's like, it's not just the person who's wounded and hurting that we, we positively impact. Like that person then.

It's like a ripple. They change their children's lives. They change their spouse's lives. They change the people they work with. They change their brothers and sisters, their parents. It's like every interpersonal connection they have, right? And their children will then positively change their own children and their marital relationships. It's like that just goes. And it is like, you think you've dropped a rock on a pond.

but it can turn positively into a monsoon of greatness. You never really know what you've done. And I see that in my own life because I've received letters now 15 years later from people I've helped and it's like, hey, you did this and I don't take credit. I feel completely that I am a vessel being used by higher power. So I'm just gonna say that upfront.

I mean, I honestly believe that. And I get these letters and it's like, Kelly, I want to thank you for and they'll tell me what I did. And honestly, all I remember is that I was just there in the moment when they were wounded. Right. And they're like, now I have children and I had a grandchild and I did this and I've got this great job or I went to school and they'll send me pictures or they're like.

these things that manifested for them. And I know it's because like God gave me this gift and he helped me use it and I see what they did and it just is wonderful. Now here's the opposite of what happens. It's like if you don't get your stuff straight like Claire saying and realize that you can be mindful and grateful and regulate yourself and you just spew brokenness.

KJ (34:17.665)
That same rocky drop with positive impact will be the rocky rock you drop and instead it's a volcano and that hot lava destroys every

clare (34:34.064)
I mean, even to people that you, or not you, but the people that we come into contact with, you know, when we don't have that, you can really negatively affect someone that you don't even know.

KJ (34:47.313)
Right and you don't know it like you're just in a bad mood and you've been wounded and you're hurt and you don't know and you go to the walmart, which I would never go but some people do and they It scares me but like you go and there's just somebody who's also in the same mental space and you guys clash and then you lash out And then you damage each other and it just keeps perpetuating, right? And

clare (34:56.492)
I will never go there.

clare (35:13.79)
Yeah, yeah, because if you're not aware, you go home and you take that hurt and you take that anger and maybe some hatred that got sprinkled in and then you pass it along to everyone else. So it's this cycle.

KJ (35:29.657)
Right? And so this is a way that you just, this is a tool that you could stop it and be introspective, calm yourself down, breathe in reality, regulate. That person could have been an asshole. I don't know. But it's not your problem.

clare (35:48.518)
Exactly, and that's the objective part. Like, that's not my fault. That's not my problem.

KJ (35:55.873)
You don't need to like figure it out. Like it's a moment in time, calm down, right? And you stop the flow of lava and you begin the flow of water and you get your power.

clare (36:10.378)
Yeah, I wonder if people can see the long and far reaching effects that they can have.

KJ (36:17.041)
I can promise you, I can promise the sweet lady, I got evidential experience with beautiful letters and life's changed and babies being born and jobs being given. You know, in the Christian perspective, we call it fruits, right? I now see the fruits that have been born out and they're beautiful. And I think it's worth.

Getting folks to understand that they could have that too and I want it so much for them

clare (36:48.034)
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, I was brought up Buddhist, but I'm not super religious, but in Buddhism that's karma, right? A lot of people think it's, you know, it's different, but that's karma. That's doing good for the entire world when you do good, right? So, freaks and karma, they both have the same energy and the same feeling. So it doesn't matter.

KJ (37:00.876)
Great.

KJ (37:08.729)
Thanks for watching!

clare (37:18.306)
whether you're religious or whatever religion you are, it works. It works for the world.

KJ (37:25.053)
It does. It does. It works for the world and it works for you because it keeps you centered, right? And it helps you connect back to your authentic self and it helps you just be a better person for you and your family, right? And it goes back to checking your temperature because then...

you're able to have good relationships that are meaningful, that fill you up and you fill, you are able to regulate if are you truly mad and what you're mad about. It allows you to pull down depression and anxiety. It allows you to connect authentically, right? And so those are the things that help you check your temperature and understand like, I got this, I'm okay.

clare (38:17.794)
Yeah, that's beautiful.

KJ (38:20.561)
No, you're beautiful, Claire. Yeah. You are and that's what makes this so awesome. And that's what you bring to the world and it's just great. And then and you know, you are a gift. You really are a gift. And we appreciate you so much here at the heart of the matter and I think anybody and everybody is going to love all the tools and treasures that

clare (38:22.475)
No, you are. You know, we could do this.

clare (38:38.146)
Thank you.

KJ (38:50.617)
Claire has to share. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Claire Bear.

clare (38:53.162)
Mmm. No.

clare (39:01.282)
Thank you for having me. I love seeing you. I love like, just, I think we always have this great, these great conversations because there's always so much to learn from each other. I always pick up something from you that I can either use in my life or in therapy. I'm so excited to be here with you.

KJ (39:23.069)
Well, and I think that's what being in wonderful reciprocal relationships are like. You know, you're able to be open and vulnerable and feel safe and understand that there are so many multiple perspectives, right? And that we can learn from each other and we can grow with each other. Before we go, like I was going to let you go, but now you've opened it up and I can't hold back.

I'm gonna share with the world some specialty.

Claire, you have to share the one thing I challenged you on the most, which was therapeutic confrontation.

clare (40:06.734)
It has been the best thing ever.

KJ (40:09.401)
Yeah, but it was really, but it was difficult, right? Because like, because you know, the world doesn't know me yet. Hopefully they'll get to, they'll probably hate me once they do, but I'm a very direct person for the most part. Like I try to have, I try to be direct with love because otherwise that's brutal. And so I, I do try to be very loving with my directness and I use a lot of humor, but I am pretty direct with everyone for the most part.

clare (40:14.172)
Oh my god.

KJ (40:38.545)
unless I feel like they can't handle it. And so part of my counseling style is also very direct, right? And so Claire is the kindest, sweetest, non-confrontational person you're ever gonna meet.

So clear, I'll let you pick it up from there.

clare (41:00.518)
started off in this work, I was very person-centered and I thought that person-centered was really allowing that person to take the lead. And through you, you know, I learned that, you know, really clients come to us for a reason, right? I mean, obviously we don't like give life advice per se and tell people what to do, but...

people do need to be opened up to other ways of thinking, other ways of acting, and that comes through confrontation, that comes through direction, that comes through, you know, sometimes it's verbal sparring, right? Like, cause there's so much that people hold onto. So personally, I think it's been the most amazing thing for my practice and for me, right? I feel better doing that.

Like I feel that I'm making more of an impact. My clients have told me that, you know, oh, I love that you give me assignments or you give me things to think about. I love that you called me out on that. And I love being able to do it, right? Because then I'm not holding back.

KJ (42:17.529)
Well, tell, kind of like share with people what that felt like at first when I pushed you to confront.

clare (42:28.198)
I was really scared. I was scared I was going to break my clients. And I think that if you and I had not talked about like the loving kindness that goes into confrontation and you know, the way we present it, it can in many ways like really hurt a person. But

KJ (42:49.153)
Because the relationship has to be there first, right? Has to be solid.

clare (42:52.762)
Yeah, and the trust. Yeah, I was really, I was terrified. I was terrified that they were gonna hate me, that they were gonna fire me because they didn't like what I said. And that wasn't just for me, right? For me, it was kind of like, well, if you fire me, then are you not gonna get any help at all? You know, like, let me at least give you some options. It was, you know, and then I realized, well, okay.

If I'm going to be honest with myself, it's not about me and how they feel about me. Right. And, and maybe sometimes they need that and they do, they need like challenge because no one's done that before. And that's why they're at their.

KJ (43:38.365)
Okay. And so a little, obviously no specifics, but how do you feel now that you have incorporated that appropriately within practice? How do you personally feel and how do you feel like your clients are responding?

clare (43:52.598)
They love it. I don't think there's like, they're, although I can be very careful as far as like confrontation and direction, it's always my style. Now, like I go into the procession, there will be homework and there'll be a science and if you don't like it, that's totally cool. I get it, right? But I'm always gonna give suggestions, right? I'm always gonna tell them the truth. I'm always gonna call them out. So I love it and they love it. You know, I have one, she said,

bull crap me, you know what I mean? Just because you do tell me the truth, because you do say what needs to be said. And I've had a lot of clients say that. And so I feel like that's very positive reinforcement for it. Now, I haven't had anyone saying anything negative, but maybe there are, I don't know, I just haven't heard it, right? Like.

KJ (44:44.657)
Yeah, and it is a hard space to be in and people are going to get their feelings hurt, you know, and they're going to, I'm okay if people push back. I'm not always right. It's, it's absolutely okay. But we do have the right when people are doing distressing things to themselves to say like, and why did you do that distressing thing? Did you think that was going to be okay?

clare (45:05.582)
Right? Oh, right. Because if they don't hear it from us, who are they going to hear it from?

KJ (45:10.649)
Right? Otherwise we're causing more damage because we're allowing them to wound themselves. And I greatly love everyone I see. I do. Right? And so it's, yeah, it's, it is, it is. And so I think that's just part of us in love and having that veracity for our client, like, wielding that truth with love.

clare (45:18.711)
Yeah.

clare (45:22.014)
I do too. It's crazy, right?

KJ (45:36.157)
Helping them like pull that into and they could disagree. It's okay but I believe we have to in some way like put it out there when they do it again like Didn't I say that I like?

clare (45:40.903)
Oh yeah.

clare (45:49.034)
Yeah. Right? Like, no, that's not okay.

KJ (45:54.945)
So you kind of have to like hold that tension a little bit. So I do. I know. Exactly. And so I did want to bring that up because like anybody, I don't want everybody like to hear that, you know, Claire and I had this like delightful fairy godmother experience as supervisor supervisee. It's challenging, right? You're going to be put in uncomfortable positions.

clare (45:58.57)
Yeah. I think accountability.

KJ (46:22.977)
because it's growth.

clare (46:26.29)
I think it's important for a supervisee and a supervisor to have the dynamic that we had. And here's what I mean by that. Like me understanding that I don't know everything, right? But you also understanding that I also have questions. And just because I question something doesn't mean I question you as a supervisor, right? Where we get rid of the ego.

KJ (46:55.693)
Oh yeah.

clare (46:56.286)
And it's very open communication where there's no judgment. Because when you have that title, supervisor and supervisee, sometimes people don't feel comfortable. Like, I just don't get it. You know, like it's hard for people to admit. So I think when there's that dynamic, especially for new therapists, because it's daunting to go into something and say, well, I did grad school for like almost three years and I don't know anything.

Right? No one wants to admit that. But the minute you can say that and your supervisor goes, I get that, you know, I've been there. I understand. That's what I'm here for. You know, it's really refreshing. Yeah, it's refreshing. Right. I mean, if there's a lot of pressure in what we do because we see people cry, you know, we have people with suicide ideation. So if you can have that support and freedom.

KJ (47:39.175)
I love you!

KJ (47:57.057)
Yeah, and I hope you always heard me say like, I know you're never gonna do it my way or like I would do it or say it. Thank God, because there's.

clare (47:57.506)
That's good.

clare (48:09.478)
Hahahaha

KJ (48:11.482)
Oh, this is a wild mouth I've got so please don't say it like I would say it or do it. Oh, I don't know So I get that right so it has to be Claire's version of therapeutic confrontation, right?

has to be Claire's version, not Kelly's version. So she, you know, I highly encouraged Claire to do it her way. It just had to be done. And so we had to practice what that felt like and look like and what within her held her back from doing it. Cause trust me, I had it too. I was like, when I was new, oh, like even though I'm very direct, it's like, well, how do I say it and do it without.

wounding and in love and showing up right so that's where that trust comes between us first so she could have the courage to do it her way in her room yeah so i appreciate you allowing me in that vulnerable space with you

clare (49:14.874)
Oh no, I was so grateful for that. I have to tell you as an associate, and I don't know if you remember what it's like, because you've been a therapist for a long time. You know, you really, if you have any insecurity at all, it's gonna come to this.

KJ (49:33.364)
Oh, Iro-

clare (49:36.59)
hard thing to deal with. Some of us will lash out or we'll go into avoidance or we just stay really quiet and pretend nothing's wrong. But you don't get anything from it if you do that. So once I felt I felt that I was safe in doing that, not judged, then I could ask all those questions that I feel have been helpful to me.

KJ (50:05.369)
Yeah. And I, you know, I've shared with others as we've done this, that, you know, I, you know, I try to like, yes, we talk about clients and cases, but I'm also very attuned to you and what's going on in your heart and your mind and your life. Because if you're not well, not that I'm providing you therapy, but if you're not your best, then you can't provide the best. So

how you are responding to a particular case and how it's affecting you because it's going to come back to the client. So just being attuned to you and not being a mom, but like a sister, a friend, a mentor, a supervisor, it's like holding that, all of that to love you and squeak and snuggle you and then knowing that we're willing to let you go and that kind of...

clare (50:39.9)
Oh yeah.

KJ (51:02.041)
thing and it's a unique role like role to hold but I loved it. I have absolutely loved it with you guys. It's just been a joy. It really has.

clare (51:13.082)
I've left it here. We're going to continue to meet.

KJ (51:17.273)
That's what everybody says, you can't ever leave me.

clare (51:21.506)
to admit I'm not a good supervisee because I will literally text you at 8 at night. Oh my god. And I don't think that's, I don't know if that's professional.

KJ (51:32.125)
It is absolutely okay. You get it. You know, you guys are still new and I would rather that than not. It's absolutely okay. Yeah. Well.

clare (51:34.158)
I'm sorry.

clare (51:42.07)
Yeah, I think even experienced people should be able to consult with others.

KJ (51:48.937)
It's important. That's the next step. Having a good strong consultation group, having a being surrounded by a group of strong professionals that you can rely on that has your back that are that are good diagnostically is always important.

clare (52:05.014)
Yeah, yeah.

KJ (52:06.889)
Well, Claire, it has been such a pleasure having you with me today. I appreciate you. Thank you for joining us.

clare (52:13.858)
Thank you for having me. I can't wait to watch all the episodes. It's gonna be so.

KJ (52:15.81)
well.

Well, I can't wait either. So if you guys have not yet, please click subscribe, join the Heart of the Matter tribe. We cannot wait to share more information about Claire in season two. We love you guys. Wherever you're at in the world today, please know you're home at the Heart of the Matter. So thank you.